Post trib problems

This is another article from Thomas Ice that I will comment. His writing is in Italics and can be found at http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=6

I know I have being writing quite a bit on articles from Thomas Ice. Just to let everyone know I don't have anything against Thomas Ice in fact I like him. He's a good writer and seems to put a lot of effort into his work. This is a good thing if he is searching truth in scripture.

Ok here we go.

POST-TRIB PROBLEMS

One of the strengths of the pre-trib position is that it is best able to harmonize the many events of end-time prophecy because of its distinction between the rapture and the second coming. Normally, posttribulationists do not even attempt to answers such objections and the few that try struggle with the biblical text putting forth stained interpretations. Yet, pretribulationists do not encounter difficulties in providing answers. What are some post-trib problems?

First, posttribulationism requires that the church will be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Daniel 9:24 says that all 70 weeks are for Israel. Pretribulationism is not in conflict with this passage, as is posttribulationism, since the church departs before the beginning of the seven-year period.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city…

In the verse “thy people” you may think this is exclusively the nation of Israel but really there’s no proof that this does not include the Church. Neither does this mean the Church is exempt from this period. The previous 69 weeks the Church is exempt from this because the Lord Jesus Christ did not sacrifice his life yet. I say the Church didn’t exist yet but that’s because the word was not used in Hebrew, in fact the meaning of the word Church did exist, in Hebrew. See the word Church in the KJV is translated from the Greek word…

ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
From Church in Matt 16:18.

When the Septuagint was written in about 200BC the same Greek word to describe the Church ek-klay-see'-ah was used in the Old Testament to describe the assembly of the nation of Israel.

Dispensationalists believe that things are very black and white between the Church and the Nation of Israel, however I believe the Nation of Israel simply includes the Church as we call it. Not in flesh and blood but in a spiritual way.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

I am not saying the Church and Israel is the same thing at this point but you can’t just automatically assume everything has to be separated into dispensations, especially those things future.

Second, posttribulationism must deny the New Testament teaching of imminency-that Christ could come at any-moment. Pretribulationism does not have a problem with these New Testament passages, since they believe that no signs must precede the rapture.

I did an article on immanency earlier and I found there are no explicit passages that force the issue of an imminent rapture. Sure imminent and approaching may sound similar but they are not.

Third, premillennial posttribulationism has no answer to their problem of who will populate the millennium if the rapture and second coming occur at the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the rapture and all unbelievers judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the millennium. The pre-trib viewpoint does not have a problem at this point.

Again it’s not that black and white; there are different “groups” who are saved. Its true everyone is judged. (2Ti 4:1) However the 144,000 of the nation of Israel stay on the earth and get the seal of God in their foreheads. (Rev 7:1-8) Then there are the sheep of the nations in Matt 25. So I disagree with this. “then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the millennium”.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

…because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the millennium.
As you can see when the Lord comes back to earth with his holy angels, there will be a time of Judgment and there will be separate a groups of people who actually inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:34). These people are left to “…inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”

Fourth, posttribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the second coming in Matthew 25:31-46. As in the previous problem, how would there be any believers in mortal bodies, if they were raptured at the second coming, who would be available to enter into Christ's kingdom? Pretribulationism does not have such a problem.

I think the real problem is not with pre-trib concept in this perticular passage but with the idea of the Second Advent being at the end of the 7-year covenant.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As you can see when the Lord Jesus comes back to earth he Judges the people and he sets the goats on his left hand and a sheep on his right hand.
Yet there is a problem. Notice how these events are very similar.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The Lord destroys the beast at his coming.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
After the Lords coming there is a season and time where certain people have there lives prolonged. The lawless one does not have his life pro-longed. If you notice the description in Matt 25 of the goats, the anti-christ would fit into this category as well as the false prophet (Rev 19:20) as a goat. So why is it that the rest of the Beasts have there life pro-longed for a season and time, what is the point of this? I believe there must be some middle ground where people can pass through this immediate judgment without any verdict if you will. I am not saying these people are innocent or anything like that. The reason I believe they are exempt from any judgment is because of the grounds on which the judgment is being issued. Remember this is not the Great white throne.

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

There must be people who were indifferent of the whole matter, perhaps they really believed in world peace or something and never wanted to harm anyone. That’s just a wild guess but you can’t deny this period where these lives actually live past this initial Judgment.

So the question is raised what happens in this time? I believe it is the day of the Lord the period of wrath. This happens after the Lords advent and before the millennial reign.

Rev 6:16,17 Isa 13:9 Joe 2:1 Jer 46:10 Zep 1:18 Rev 19:15-17

Most of the readers probably believe the Son of man will come at an unknown hour it’s an explicit teaching of scripture (Matt 24:36). A thing to note is the time in which these Beasts have there life prolonged in Dan 7:12 “Season and time”. It’s interesting to note that Season simply means duration of time. Time means technically a year.

Fifth, since Revelation 19:7-8 indicates that the church, Christ's Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Rev. 19:14) before the second coming, how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on earth awaiting Christ's Advent? If the rapture of the church takes place at the second coming, then how does the Bride (i.e., the church) also come with Christ at His return? There would not be sufficient time for this to happen within a posttribulational sequence, but the pre-trib position has no such problem.

Time is no issue as Paul states.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I don’t believe that Paul means the last trumpet in the book of Revelation. Simply because Paul states many times in 1 Thessalonians, ie.1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

More evidence of this period of wrath concerning the 144,000.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The nation of Israel gets the seal in there forehead at the Lords coming. How do we explain this being before the Lords coming in "glory"? Could this possibly fit into the period of tribulation? Read Matthew 24 notice how the Lord Jesus did not mention anything like this in what he descibes as tribulation.